I recently had the very fun opportunity to interview Wendy Shanker, author of the new book The Fat Girl's Guide to Life. In a perfect world, we would have met in person to bitch about fat and body issues over huge slices of pizza or something (even though Wendy is a very healthy eater, and I probably would have been eating the pizza by myself while she had some zesty salad with low fat dressing). But, the stars did not align for this to happen… so, we chatted on the phone instead, and it was much fun!

After the hellos...

Melody: I'm totally psyched to talk to you about this, 'cause I really enjoyed the book.

Wendy: Oh! Thank you so much!

Melody: Yeah, it was awesome. I'm so glad that when I interviewed Jennifer and Amy, one of the first things we talked about... while the babies were running around and screaming and stuff, was how you were just on a talk show that morning...

Wendy: Oh, yeah! They must have been talking about the Jane Pauley thing. We were discussing this really interesting study that Dove products paid for… you know Dove, like, the soap? They hired a very astute research company, and Suzie Orbach, author of Fat is a Feminist Issue, and Nancy Etcoff who wrote Survival of the Prettiest, and they did this worldwide survey about women's attitudes about beauty. And, their findings were really intense and disappointing, because it just sort of confirmed how awful women feel about themselves. It also showed the potential for change, and the idea that if companies changed their advertising, then women will respond to it in a positive way. Like, instead of trying to sell us stuff in order to make us feel bad, selling us stuff in a way that makes us feel good is a viable alternative. I think they're going to get really great results from it.

Melody: Hmm, that does sound interesting. I hope it was prompted by a good mission behind it, instead of just, like, "what will sell better?"

Wendy: Yeah! Well, I mean… there really is this sort of altruistic mission. You know, when they did the testing they didn't do it like: "if you use different Dove products…" Like, the people who responded didn't know that it was sponsored by Dove. It was really like: "How do you feel about your own beauty?" And women, of course, said: "Who me? I'm not beautiful. I'm gross and disgusting!"

Melody: HA! Oh, gawd...

Wendy: And they said: "Well, what about other women?" and they were like: "Oh, yeah! Other women are beautiful! Just not me." And they asked, "Well what is beauty? Is it just how you look?" and they said "Oh, no no no! Beauty is more than how you look! It's how you act, it's who you love, it's what you do… except for me. For me it's just about how I look, and how I look is horrible!" ... And, the thing that I have found out from talking to all these different people is: everyone seems to think they're fat, whether they are, physically, or not. And, it is a brutal power in women's lives.

Melody: Oh, totally! Like, every single person thinks they're fat, or at least, not OK.

Wendy: Yeah! Whatever it is, they're not good enough. And I keep on getting these letters from women who are like: "I only wear a size six, but I still manage to feel horrible, and I still feel like the world hates me." And it's just like, "Oh my gosh, girls! Snap out of it! Let's get over this already!" It's holding us back in a really big way!

Melody: And if you are fat, and you're comfortable with it, you're not allowed to say it.

Wendy: No. People, when I go, "Yeah, I'm fat" are just like: (in a baby tone) "Oh, you're not fat!" No... I am fat. It's OK! I'm not evil, but, yeah, I'm definitely fat. Like, here's the fat, you can touch it! It's fat! So, you know, the word is so loaded that nobody wants to offend me... even when I'm "offending" myself. And, at this point I don't even hear it. I feel like Eve Ensler must feel about the word "vagina." You know, I've said it so many umpteen thousand times, that it doesn't even sound like anything to me. But I still see people blanche when I say it.

Melody: Yeah, and another thing that Jennifer and Amy said you get a lot is people coming up to you and asking: "If I have a friend who is fat, is it OK for me to buy them this book?"

Wendy: Yeah!

Melody: And, I don't know! I guess, your answer probably would have been like: "Of course! They know they're fat!" But, like, if someone bought me the book, I think I would have been like...

Wendy: Hey! Yeah, what I tell people in that situation is: "well, tell them it's not about them... tell them it's about this girl Wendy, who's fat, and maybe you'll like her story... but it's not about you."

Melody: Obviously...

Wendy: In a way, I'm like, "thank God for Amazon!" because, I feel like one of the reasons this book bought so well, was that you didn't have to buy it in the bookstore.... if you were worried about the word.

Melody: Oh, gawd! And, reading it in public... I hid the title, I'll be honest!

Wendy: Yeah, totally! I keep looking around to see someone reading it on the subway or something... and I haven't found it yet. It's easy for me to be kind of a warrior about it... it's harder for the average person, and I get why it's hard. But, I also was like, I'm not going to write "the nice overweight girl's guide to life." If I'm doing this, I'm gonna do it! There's plenty of books out there called, like, "beautiful, bountiful, curvy... you."

Melody: Voluptuous...

Wendy: Yeah! "Very voluptuous... but lovely!" And I'm like, oh f*** it, like, they might be voluptuous, I'm actually fat! So, I'm just going there... and people either get it or they won't. But, yeah, just say "Wendy's the fat girl, not you."

Melody: She's the only one! It's amazing! But, randomly going on to a new topic... I totally loved the "fat slut" phenomenon that you wrote about.

Wendy: Yeah, you know... it's funny... I think everyone has this period in which they make a lot of really stupid sexual decisions. And like, a lot of people can tie it in to feeling psyched, and the freedom of whatever, and "I'm a woman and I'm gonna work it" and all that sort of stuff... But, I'd say, like, nine times out of ten it's actually tied into low self esteem: Whether it happens to you in high school or college, or when you're strutting around after you graduate... for me, that was when it sort of struck.

Melody: Yeah, with so many of my friends as well... there seems to be a very specific period of "sluttiness"... and then a very abrupt end to the period.

Wendy: Yeah, I think you either get smart or you get bored, "hmmm, maybe, I'll just watch TV." So, yeah, I think that [sexual whatever-ness] is a very strong kind of image area. Because, I don't get to see fat sex anywhere. Like, anywhere, in magazines, or TV shows, among my friends... I don't see it happening anywhere. So it's hard to make myself believe that it's a real phenomenon. And the numbers just don't add up, because there are a lot of fat people in this country having sex! Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Melody: Yeah, I would hope!

Wendy: So, I think that's really important. And, so, I guess creating positive kinds of fat heroines would be a good step. Whether there are books to read like Jennifer Weiner does..... or TV shows... I think the more we see it, the more comfortable we are with the idea.

Melody: Yeah! It sort of reminds me of your comparison between growing up as a gay man and growing up as a fat girl. Like, there isn't a model for how you're supposed to act.

Wendy: No!

Melody: And it's like, "but I swear there's some room for my sexuality!" Growing up myself, I totally had weight issues. And, really kindly people would say: "Oh, don't worry! When you get past high school, or when you get past college, men, I swear, men will find you attractive."

Wendy: HA!

Melody: And, like, I couldn't find myself attractive, but, "well, theoretically, there's some weirdo out there who's going to find me attractive."

Wendy: Yeah, "some pervert who's going to think I'm OK!"

Melody: Yeah!

Wendy: I think also, this is something I'm constantly tasking myself on... but, you know, we want everybody to think we're hot, and attractive and sexy... and yet we talk about ourselves like, "Ew, I'm so gross, I'm so disgusting."

Melody: Right!

Wendy: So, every time I go "Gee, I wonder why he didn't like me?" you know, it's like, "Well, remember when you looked in the mirror and went 'ew'?" How is he supposed to get past the "ew" if you're seeing "ew?" So part of the idea is like, it's easier said than done, but, until you learn to start respecting yourself and thinking "Hey, I'm hot! I'm good!" then you're asking a lot for someone else to do that work for you.

Melody: Oh, seriously. But, I guess it was always presented to me as: "Oh, well, you may have the 'ew,' but, these guys are just crazy!"

Wendy: Right. "Thanks!" Like, everyone is just trying to do you a favor, right? "Thanks for the support!"

Melody: Yeah! And then... I don't know if you read this... there was this awful article a few years ago... I think it was in some newspaper in Cleveland or something. Bitch Magazine had a link on their website to it, with a little directive for everyone to get really pissed off about it. This woman interviewed these guys who went around to bars doing something they called "hogging".

Wendy: Oh yeah! I remember this!

Melody: Ugh! And, of course, I read that and I was like: "Oh my God! All these guys who are supposed to be finding me attractive... are they really only finding me attractive in that way??" It was just completely sick to me!

Wendy: Yeah, I know! I just read a couple of weeks ago... when this Jose Canseco book came out... he talks about this thing called "slump-busting." And, apparently, athletes, when they're in a terrible slump... if they try to sleep with the ugliest woman that they can find, they think it will "bust" their slump.

Melody: (gasp) Oh my God!!

Wendy: That gave me the creepy crawlies! I was like "listen, you steroid-ridden asshole!"

Melody: (gasps again)

Wendy: And to think that there's some woman whose bar story was "Yeah, I once f***ed Jose Canseco!" And it's like, "wait a second, was I just a 'slump-buster'?"

Melody: Yeah, what were his batting averages like at the time?

Wendy: Yeah, it was just so gross. But, I'm just so convinced that it's not really about what the guy thinks... it's that he's worried about what everyone else is gonna think. That's why it's important to try to find a man... or woman, who has some self-esteem! I like to tell fat girls, "Not everyone needs to think you're the most beautiful girl. Just one! One is good." You know, we all walk out there thinking "Oh God, what if everyone doesn't think I'm super hot!?" And, it's like, you know what? Not everyone needs to! You don't think everyone is super hot.

Melody: Yeah, except for a few outliers...

Wendy: Yeah! So, it really is a confidence game... but the older you get, the little wiser you get about that sort of thing.

Melody:Ok, well speaking about getting "older and wiser" that brings me to the "family meddlers" question. I read that you're Jewish, and I'm half Jewish.... Half Jewish/half Catholic-Italian... so the food, and the guilt pour in from all sides! And, in both cultures, food is construed as love... and that's just all sorts of problematic!

Wendy: Yeah!

Melody: On the one hand my family will be like: "Here you go... here is this humongous plate of homemade pasta and meatballs"... but then they'll turn around and say "You're not going to actually eat all of that, are you?" and it's like "But, you just gave it to me!"

Wendy: Right! You gave it to me... we're celebrating... you're eating it... I'm supposed to have different rules?

Melody: Right!

Wendy: You know, I'm convinced now that it's sort of a parent's job to train... "the young mammal," how to eat. Like, just how you train them to speak, and just how you train them to shit and talk... and once you've trained them, like, you're done! And yet parents are still stressing about their six year olds, and their eight year olds, and their sixteen year olds and their thirty-two year olds! Yet, I don't think there is any difference in how you treat a fat kid or a fat teenager or a fat adult. You know it, you're doing what you can do... and it doesn't help to have people ripping on you, giving you "tough love," making you diet... the only thing that helps is unconditional love! Like, "I'm going to love you no matter what." You know, there is no study out there that proves that if you harass your teenage daughter she will not end up being fat. Although, there seems to be a lot of support for the idea that if you harass your teenage daughter she will end up with an eating disorder!

Melody: Exactly!

Wendy: I don't know how many moms have been successful at, like, averting their child from a lifetime of fat-hood. If I could find one, I'd be psyched! The only story I ever hear is: "My mom/dad/whoever gave me a hard time and I got: A) Fat, B) Bulimic... C) Anorexic. I never hear anyone say: "I'm so fit and healthy today because my mom gave me a lot of shit when I was a teenager!"

Melody: HA! Yeah, it's like: "the opposite is actually true!"

Wendy: Yeah! Because, I think you're genetically disposed to turn out a certain way... and the best thing you can do is offer a lot of support! Yes, kids are getting fatter, yes, teenagers are getting fatter... but there are also more diets than there have ever been! So, it's not from lack of information or, you know, ways to lose weight!

Melody: And screw everyone who thinks it's like, their duty, to comment upon your weight or eating habits!

Wendy: Yeah! You know, it's so funny, I saw this show on TV called "Huff," on Showtime... and Oliver Platt, who is this really great actor, is on the show and he plays this overweight, drug-abusing, hooker-hiring, careening attorney. And, at one point he's eating, like, a steak and mashed potatoes... something gross, and his friend says to him: "Hey, what is your cholesterol anyway?" And Oliver Platt says: "Do you wax your asshole?"

Melody: HA HA HA...

Wendy: And the guy goes: "Excuse me???" And he goes: "You know, it's just as rude for you to ask me about my cholesterol as it is for me to ask you about your asshole." And I was like, "That's genius!!"

Melody: HA! I'm so going to use that the next time someone... well, not with my grandmother...

Wendy: HA! Oh, can you imagine??

Melody: Yeah, I think she would have heart attack... or pass out or something.

Wendy: Before I wrote this book, I was much more judgmental of skinny people than I am now.

Melody: Really?

Wendy: Now I think skinny girls think they're fat girls! And they're putting up their defense mechanisms like we all are! It's funny... I think fat girls are a lot less ashamed than I used to think, and I think skinny girls are a lot more than I used to think.

Melody: 'Cause, no one is happy with their body.

Wendy: Part of the funny thing with that Dove study I was telling you about... is that, I wonder when women don't want to use the word "beautiful" to describe themselves, if they really don't think they're beautiful, or they're just too embarrassed.

Melody: Yeah! Or, they don't want to be vain...

Wendy: And I'm like, "I would love a few more vain women out there!" Like, it doesn't hurt anyone for me, Wendy Shanker, to walk around saying, "I'm beautiful!" Like, even if you don't think I am... there is no harm in me saying it!

Melody: Yay! Ok, and the last thing... "the other F-WORD"... which is actually how you refer to feminism in your book at one point! We already talked about the word "Fat" being a loaded term...

Wendy: Yeah! And, it's like the only thing worse, that a modern, cool, smart woman can be called besides "fat" is "feminist." And, maybe I just have a rock in my brain or something, but I just don't see why any woman would not want to be a feminist!

Melody: Exactly! There is this really great Gloria Steinem quote that goes: "In my heart, I think a woman has two choices: either she's a feminist or a masochist."

Wendy: Yeah! That's our Glo! To me, to say that you're not a feminist, is to say "I don't like women... or, I'm not proud to be a woman!"

Melody: I don't like... myself!

Wendy: And I just feel like saying: "You need to learn how to respect being in your own skin." Because, if you want somebody to give you civil rights, if you want somebody to give you equal pay, if you want somebody to give you quality childcare, and healthcare... and all the things we demand as feminists, then you need to respect your own self and your own body. Part of this mission isn't just about looks, and self-esteem and confidence... but really about fundamental gender value. You know, "I value my own self and my own body, and therefore, others should too."

To learn more about Wendy, and how to order your own copy of The Fat Girl's Guide to Life, visit: wendyshanker.com